[tournament-org] Overtime

[Geoff Kaniuk]

Was Penalties for minor infringements ...

On 28/10/2018 14:04, Neil Sandford via tournament-org wrote:
> This is getting complicated with the various sub-threads. 
[[ Agreed  so I have changed the title ]]

Am I right in saying:

> 1) A player's main time ends when their flag falls.
> 
[[ Yes ]]

> 2) If there is no overtime (i.e. sudden death) then the player whose flag has fallen loses the game, otherwise ...
> 
[[ Yes ]]

> 3) Clocks are stopped
[[ Yes]]

> 4) The overtime stones are counted out and the clock of the player entering the overtime period is set to the overtime.
[[
Yes. Opponent sets the overtime period.  Opponent is not supposed to be 
thinking about the game while this happens!
]]
> 5) The clock of the player entering the overtime period is restarted.
[[
Yes
]]

> 
> 6) The game continues. At some time before  the  flag of the player whose clock is running falls, he/she can stop the clocks and go to step 4.
[[
Only after the overtime player has played all the overtime stones.

In my opinion you can wait till your opponent has moved, and then go to 4.
]]

> 
> That is - main time ends when the flag falls 
[[ Yes ]]

but overtime ends before the flag falls.
[[
The current overtime 'period' ends when the player in overtime has used 
all stones.

The overtime 'state' ends when the game is ended. At this stage both 
flags are raised.

Both players have passed, there are no status disputes or further 
resumptions and white has passed last if needed.
]]
> 
> Neil
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Kaniuk via tournament-org <tournament-org at lists.britgo.org>
> Sent: 28 October 2018 12:21
> To: tournament-org at lists.britgo.org
> Subject: Re: [tournament-org] Penalties for minor infringments ....
> 
> 
>>> On 26 October 2018 at 14:12 Geoff Kaniuk via tournament-org
>>> <tournament-org at lists.britgo.org <mailto:tournament-org at lists.britgo.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Som players may have thought that you can continue playing from the
>>> bowl till your flag drops and at that point you count out fresh stones.
>>> That may have been the rule at some point in the distant past, but it
>>> no longer is.
>>
>> I am unclear about the provenance or applicability of this rule so
>> would be grateful for elaboration.
> [[
> Provenance is lost in the mists of time. It may have been used by a local UK tournament for a while. The above rule has no applicability as it is not used.
> ]]
>>
>> To be clear, it sounds right to me but in practice how does it play out?
>>
>> A couple of years ago my opponent's flag dropped at the end of main time.
> [[
> Therefore opponent is in overtime or has lost the game if it was sudden death.
> 
> Main time ends when the flag drops.
> ]]
> 
> I
>> pointed this out and the referee declared that my opponent was not
>> ultra vires
> [[
> Its a long time since I have used any unfamiliar Latin so I looked it up and it seems to be legalese for something that has gone wrong with a contract so hardly of relevance here?
> ]]
> 
>> and could count out some stones and carry on as before.
> 
> [[
> When the flag drops in main time, the clocks are paused.  You set the time period. Your opponent counts stones. You check that the count is accurate. It is now your turn to play and your opponent starts the clock.
> ]]
> 
> (It took me several
>> minutes to find a referee, too..., and yes I was behind)
> [[
> If for some reason you need to find a referee:
> 1. Tell your opponent that this is needed.
> 2. Pause the clocks.
> 3. Search for referee.
> ]]
> 
>>
>> This happened at a European tournament. I have since discussed this
>> with UK colleagues who on the whole have suggested I was being a bit
>> unreasonable but I cannot fathom the counterfactual .
>>
>> My view had always been that playing time should be continuous
> [[
> Game time as measured by the game clock is a consecutive sequence.  Real time may show inactive periods.
> ]]
>    and it is up to
>> me to stop my flag falling in an unready state (end of main time, some
>> stones left to play after the byo-yomi period)
> 
> [[
> I think what you may be hinting at is only possible with a digital clock which can indicate a change of state without any break in its counting down.  (I know that BGA is getting some digital clocks and maybe Matt can elaborate on how these manage Canadian overtime).
> 
> This is not possible with a mechanical clock. Also not possible  with our BGA rules of play (derived from AGA rules)
>>
> [[
> Sticking to mechanics: When the flag falls in main time you start overtime. Clocks are paused and then the flag is raised. When you count stones in overtime clocks are paused. If the flag falls you lose.
> ]]
>> If a gap after main time is allowed (5 second, 5 minutes, 5 years?)
>> then its that not the same as having stones left over in byo-yomi?
>>
>> And what is the basis for the actual rule, please?
> [[
> Please see the Handbook - Organiser's Toolbag http://www.britgo.org/organisers/handbook/tournamentd
> Section D.1.2
> ]]

Geoff

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