[tournament-org] Using groups vs changing clubs

[Geoff Kaniuk]

Interesting points raised here.  Please see [[ ... ]] for some comments.

Geoff

33 Ashbury Close, Cambridge CB1 3RW 01223 710582

On 24/10/2018 16:45, Christopher Kirkham via tournament-org wrote:
> It appears that we are not very interested in discussing the problem Geoff raised about using groups.  So here is a real situation in a related area.
> Player A lives in a city with a very small club, SC, but is sufficiently keen to regularly visit an adjacent club, LC, which is full of suitably strong opponents who he regularly plays, both at the club and on-line.  So when LC holds a tournament, A enters but asks to play as a member of LC, instead of SC. 

Should the tournament director allow this
[[ Yes - but there are better ways than changing club. ]]

  - ideally remembering to reset A's club to SC for the results?
[[
If the TD does change clubs then it is very helpful if TD then resets 
clubs before sending in results.
]]

  Or should he use groups to achieve the desired effect?
[[
Using groups would be better.
]]

> To use groups, the first way which springs to mind is to put all relevant LC players together with A into a group, with the attribute "prefer not". (Clearly "must not" would be too extreme.) 
[[
Good - this is a first step!
]]

The question here is whether this has the same effect? If "prefer not" 
is taken just as seriously as "member of the same club" this presumably 
would not affect the draw - but is it?
[[
This is the crux of the issue. 'prefer not' is different to 'not same club'.

Players in a prefer not group are given first dibs at choosing an 
opponent from outside the group if such exists. Only then does GoDraw 
try to find a player from a different club.

These rules are not guarantees - just ordering possibilities.
]]

And if there is an effect, is it desirable or undesirable?
[[
So there is an effect.

It is desirable because it is more likely that player A will get to play 
new faces.

It is undesirable because it reduces the first choices for *all* players 
in the group, making it that bit harder for GoDraw to satisfy the 'same 
mms' rule.
]]

> Behind this whole situation is the question of what clubs mean?  There wouldn't be a problem if a player's club were really flexible - A could be a member of SC at one tournament and of LC at the next, or if A could be a member of both. However, the ranking system associates a single club with each member - and Geoff invests effort in noticing changes in players' clubs in tournament results. But with a high density of clubs in some areas and the ability to play opponents online wherever they are, the association of a player with a single club for tournament purposes seems sub-optimal.

[[
Apart from pairing considerations, clubs help to identify players in 
EGD. The problems arise when players enter with changed clubs without 
discussing with TD. Sometimes players do actually move towns or change 
clubs within a city.  So it then leads to delay in submitting results to 
EGD while the player's id is not settled.
]]



> Chris
> P.S. In the real situation, A played as LC and did end up playing 1 of the 3 rounds against LC. He was quite content, however, not to play all 3 - which could easily have happened!
[[
My reading of the tournament is that it was going to be quite difficult 
to keep A away from other LC players. In A's grade group there were two 
LC (apart from A). In the group above There were 2 LC and 2 others. In 
the group below there were 2 LC, 1 SC and 1 other.  Player A ended being 
drawn up in round 1 (other) drawn up in round 2(other) and even in round 
3 (LC).

It is well worth considering for problems like this whether a manual 
draw for player A might give a better solution than groups.

The idea is that at each round you make just one manual pairing to try 
to accommodate player A, but then leave GoDraw to complete the rest of 
the pairing.

This would also solve my original problem, and no changing of clubs or 
setting up of groups is needed.
]]
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> tournament-org mailing list
> tournament-org at lists.britgo.org
> http://lists.britgo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tournament-org
>