[tournament-org] WhereIsTheBar

Tue Oct 2 11:51:47 BST 2018

The bar has always mystified me. Why should the strongest player(s) be given a less challenging draw than the rest of the field? And why the next-to-strongest be penalised by not being given a handicap when playing another (stronger) player from above the bar?

The purpose of the bar and the mechanism of handicap are two separate discussions. Perhaps we can learn from the golf approach to handicapping? 

Players are given an initial handicap (ranking) from assessment based on performance in three games. They can only play in a competition without a handicap by playing off zero (i.e. by being given the same rating as the strongest player in the competition - in Geoff’s case, 5D).

Given that that is unlikely to be very pleasant for either player, there is a provision for assessing three results from games at your own club _before_ the tournament. This is most frequently done through a discussion like “You are playing to 8kyu at the club but getting stronger. I suggest you enter as 7kyu”.

Then there is also https://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison

This attempts to normalise the various rating systems, including the main online servers. I used it in an inter-club competition on Saturday and was at best apprehensive. An AGA 1D was entered at 3kyu, for example. At the end of the day, everyone agreed that the match had been very close (8 games, typically within 10 points). The AGA 1D won both his games. But someone who regularly plays club games at his EGD rating (6kyu) lost both games. Geoff processed the results and only came up with one recommendation (for an unrated player entered as 4kyu):

Beats NG(10.2k -5st) loses RP(5.8k - 2st) So 4k OK but 5k probably more realistic.

Neil

From: Gerry Gavigan via tournament-org <tournament-org at lists.britgo.org> 
Sent: 01 October 2018 16:35
To: ptm at tobymanning.co.uk
Cc: TobyManning via tournament-org <tournament-org at lists.britgo.org>
Subject: Re: [tournament-org] WhereIsTheBar

That's an extreme interpretation of my comment. I'm not sure why you are inferring "no bar ever"  

In this example, as with Cork, there is a sparse entry.

With no handicap the 5 dan will be shooting fish in a barrel and everyone else will be a fish. 

My understanding of the McMahon system is that it is designed to give evenly ranked games where possible. In a sparse entry that is not possible and to play without handicaps seems to negate the rating system. 

One lemma and two asides

The lemma: if I cannot choose to enter at a grade above my current strength there seems to be a conjugate that I should not be required to play above my current strength (implicit in having a bar in a sparse tournament)

Aside 1: At the EGC I was badly sandbagged by a Chinese player entering his first European tournament way below his actual strength (as he confessed to me after) It's no fun and if one took a simplistic calculation of total cost of attendance divided by number of games inmai tournament, expensive too.

On 01 October 2018 at 15:57 ptm at tobymanning.co.uk <mailto:ptm at tobymanning.co.uk>  wrote: 

Gerry:

Are you seriously saying there should NEVER be a bar, or are you saying that in this extreme case, the bar should be at 5 dan?

Toby

On 2018-10-01 14:40, Gerry Gavigan wrote:

As set it sounds to me, on behalf of all of those several stones weaker than the 5 dan, that there should not be a bar 

By any measure the 5 dan has already won.

As a 1 kyu (I wish) without a handicap I am going to have a rubbish time.

The purity of some tournament protocol should be secondary 

If the tournament police are going to insist on a bar the TD should consider bribing the 5 dan not to enter for the greater good and encouraging the potential lambs-to-the-slaughter to turn up next year.

On 01 October 2018 at 12:20 TobyManning via tournament-org < tournament-org at lists.britgo.org <mailto:tournament-org at lists.britgo.org> > wrote: 

I set it at 1 kyu, but if an organiser set it at  2kyu I would not complain. 

Setting it at 3 kyu would be wrong. 

Toby 

On 01/10/2018 11:45, Geoff Kaniuk via tournament-org wrote:

You have just registered your last player who happens to be 1d and 
people are waiting impatiently,  wanting to get on with your 3 round 
McMahon tournament. 

You are now faced with with the problem of where to set the the bar. 
Suppose in this tournament the top players are: 

5d 1d 1d 1k 1k 2k 2k 3k 3k 4k 4k 5k ..... 

Assuming all players enter at a realistic grade, where would you set 
the bar? 

It would be interesting to see your instinctive answer, rather than 
consulting the Tournament Organiser's Handbook.

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