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<p>Neil:</p>
<p>The purpose of the "bar" is predicated on the premise that the
strongest players would prefer to play even games not handicap
games, even if their proability of winning was less than 50%.</p>
<p>Once you accept this hypothesis (which has been well tested), the
bar follows almost automatically.</p>
<p>In Geoff's example, if the bar is at 5 dan (but all games at the
top are to be even) then the 5 dan will win the tournament even if
he (she) loses all 3 games.</p>
<p>To (mis)quote the Organiser's Handbook, without the bar the
strongest players get an unreasonable (and uneccessary) advantage.</p>
<p>In a tournament with a more normal entry at the top, say
2d/2d/1d/1d/1d/1k/1k/1k, with the bar at 1 kyu gives all 8 people
an equal chance of winning the tournament - all they have to do is
to win 3 games. If there was no bar then it would be practically
impossible for a 1 kyu to win the tournament, and the 1 dans would
be at a disadvantage compared with the 2 dans despite having to
play them. <br>
</p>
<p>Toby<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 02/10/2018 11:51, Neil Sandford via
tournament-org wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The bar has always mystified me. Why should
the strongest player(s) be given a less challenging draw than
the rest of the field? And why the next-to-strongest be
penalised by not being given a handicap when playing another
(stronger) player from above the bar?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The purpose of the bar and the mechanism of
handicap are two separate discussions. Perhaps we can learn
from the golf approach to handicapping? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Players are given an initial handicap
(ranking) from assessment based on performance in three games.
They can only play in a competition without a handicap by
playing off zero (i.e. by being given the same rating as the
strongest player in the competition - in Geoff’s case, 5D).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Given that that is unlikely to be very
pleasant for either player, there is a provision for assessing
three results from games at your own club _<i>before</i>_ the
tournament. This is most frequently done through a discussion
like “You are playing to 8kyu at the club but getting
stronger. I suggest you enter as 7kyu”.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Then there is also <a
href="https://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This attempts to normalise the various
rating systems, including the main online servers. I used it
in an inter-club competition on Saturday and was at best
apprehensive. An AGA 1D was entered at 3kyu, for example. At
the end of the day, everyone agreed that the match had been
very close (8 games, typically within 10 points). The AGA 1D
won both his games. But someone who regularly plays club games
at his EGD rating (6kyu) lost both games. Geoff processed the
results and only came up with one recommendation (for an
unrated player entered as 4kyu):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Beats NG(10.2k -5st) loses RP(5.8k -
2st) So 4k OK but 5k probably more realistic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Neil<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
lang="EN-US"> Gerry Gavigan via tournament-org
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tournament-org@lists.britgo.org"><tournament-org@lists.britgo.org></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> 01 October 2018 16:35<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ptm@tobymanning.co.uk">ptm@tobymanning.co.uk</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> TobyManning via tournament-org
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tournament-org@lists.britgo.org"><tournament-org@lists.britgo.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tournament-org] WhereIsTheBar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>That's an extreme interpretation of my comment. I'm not sure
why you are inferring "no bar ever" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In this example, as with Cork, there is a sparse entry.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>With no handicap the 5 dan will be shooting fish in a barrel
and everyone else will be a fish. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>My understanding of the McMahon system is that it is designed
to give evenly ranked games where possible. In a sparse entry
that is not possible and to play without handicaps seems to
negate the rating system. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>One lemma and two asides<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>The lemma: if I cannot choose to enter at a grade above my
current strength there seems to be a conjugate that I should
not be required to play above my current strength (implicit in
having a bar in a sparse tournament)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Aside 1: At the EGC I was badly sandbagged by a Chinese
player entering his first European tournament way below his
actual strength (as he confessed to me after) It's no fun and
if one took a simplistic calculation of total cost of
attendance divided by number of games inmai tournament,
expensive too.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p> <o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 01
October 2018 at 15:57 <a
href="mailto:ptm@tobymanning.co.uk" moz-do-not-send="true">ptm@tobymanning.co.uk</a>
wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Gerry:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Are you seriously saying there should NEVER be a bar, or
are you saying that in this extreme case, the bar should be
at 5 dan?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Toby<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>On 2018-10-01 14:40, Gerry Gavigan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>As set it sounds to me, on behalf of all of those several
stones weaker than the 5 dan, that there should not be a
bar <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>By any measure the 5 dan has already won.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As a 1 kyu (I wish) without a handicap I am going to have
a rubbish time.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The purity of some tournament protocol should be
secondary <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If the tournament police are going to insist on a bar the
TD should consider bribing the 5 dan not to enter for the
greater good and encouraging the potential
lambs-to-the-slaughter to turn up next year.<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">On 01 October 2018 at 12:20
TobyManning via tournament-org < <a
href="mailto:tournament-org@lists.britgo.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">tournament-org@lists.britgo.org</a>>
wrote: <br>
<br>
<br>
I set it at 1 kyu, but if an organiser set it at 2kyu I
would not complain. <br>
<br>
Setting it at 3 kyu would be wrong. <br>
<br>
Toby <br>
<br>
<br>
On 01/10/2018 11:45, Geoff Kaniuk via tournament-org
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">You have just registered your last
player who happens to be 1d and <br>
people are waiting impatiently, wanting to get on
with your 3 round <br>
McMahon tournament. <br>
<br>
You are now faced with with the problem of where to
set the the bar. <br>
Suppose in this tournament the top players are: <br>
<br>
5d 1d 1d 1k 1k 2k 2k 3k 3k 4k 4k 5k ..... <br>
<br>
Assuming all players enter at a realistic grade, where
would you set <br>
the bar? <br>
<br>
It would be interesting to see your instinctive
answer, rather than <br>
consulting the Tournament Organiser's Handbook.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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